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Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

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27 Apr 2020 20:41 #13 by admin
Replied by admin on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

gracecourt wrote:
But two weeks after the RMA request, and after providing a copy of the config



And presumably they couldn't reproduce it because, if it's a combination of environmental factors, they aren't in your environment - there's something triggering it. It's like the tyres they put on my bike - good tyres which everyone loves but for some reason they didn't ride right on my bike.

I believe that I have been more than patient in trying to resolve these issues



Patience is not the only thing required - if you want to solve the issue, if it's unusual and can't be preproduced, exhaustive diagnosis is the only way to solve it, and providing sufficient information. That said, that may be impractical for some novice users and even then, not everything can be solved. n.b. if you've ever seen inside a router, there's only a PCBA (and daughterboards) so replacing that is a new router, unless you suspect the fault is in the case

two completely different types of failure



I'm not sure what the other one was, but that was presumably replaced.

In my first post, I included a PingPlotter trace to the LAN interface that did indeed clearly display abnormal packet loss... I'm just interested to know why you believe it to be different.



Maybe I didn't read carefully enough... but a PC directly connected to one of the LAN ports losing packets is highly unusual. If it's not connected to the Internet, there's not exactly much environment to vary (LAN port on PC, OS - that's about it, but another PC could eliminate that). If you were near the DrayTek service centre, maybe you could go and demo the problem after lockdown however if it's intermittent, maybe it's unlikely to occur when you're there (and if it is intermittent, the questions is 'why' - nothing is random).

I'd suggest you ask politely for an escalation or resolution, with your order of preference. You may have done that at first but if you got frustrated, messaging can sometimes get less specific and angry. If you start being arsey and pretenting you're Judge John Deed, you'll just get your dealer's back up and they're less inclined to go the extra mile beyond their obligation... but then I'm not in customer service :-) Maybe time to start again with a simple request that makes their options seem easier. In parallel raise it with DrayTek UK support again - politely - explain that you're not satisfied and you'd still like it solved (if you would) - avoid the rants and anything non-technical - it just gets people defensive and backs up.

I was awarded judgement.



Presumably by default because such cases are economically unviable to defend regardless of the validity or frivolity. I don't know why you didn't just send the first one in for service rather than sending it back - would have saved a lot of effort.

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27 Apr 2020 21:34 #14 by gracecourt
Replied by gracecourt on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac
It's really important that you read the information I'm providing in each post.

admin wrote: And presumably they couldn't reproduce it ...


No, which wasn't a huge surprise, because they hadn't even looked at the Firebrick monitoring graphs or read the detailed information included with the RMA request. Their response to my "two-week chaser" was that they didn't understand what the fault was. Quote, unquote.

admin wrote: ... if it's unusual and can't be preproduced, exhaustive diagnosis is the only way to solve it, and providing sufficient information.


Exhaustive diagnosis is impossible unless the tester has actually read the detailed description of the fault and how it manifests itself. Don't forget that the faulty router is sitting beside me as I type this, because the RMA wasn't authorised until two weeks after I requested it, after I'd chased up the non-response after day one, when the copy config was requested (and supplied).

admin wrote:

two completely different types of failure


I'm not sure what the other one was, but that was presumably replaced.


No, it wasn't - please refer to "First 2862ac" above. The retailer refused to make the refund requested under S.9 CRA 2015 after it lay untouched at their premises for over a month when it was supposed to have been RMA'd back to Bonus Ltd. ("SEG"). That first router's fault made it unusable - repeated power cycling.

admin wrote:

In my first post, I included a PingPlotter trace to the LAN interface that did indeed clearly display abnormal packet loss... I'm just interested to know why you believe it to be different.



Maybe I didn't read carefully enough... but a PC directly connected to one of the LAN ports losing packets is highly unusual.


Very unusual indeed... but you can see the PingPlotter trace for yourself, above - and it was the router losing the packets, not the PC, that's why an RMA was requested!

admin wrote: If you were near the DrayTek service centre, maybe you could go and demo the problem after lockdown however if it's intermittent, maybe it's unlikely to occur when you're there (and if it is intermittent, the questions is 'why' - nothing is random).


It's hundreds of miles away... and there would be no need to "demo" it, all they'd have to have done was approve the RMA so I could send it back to them to test - notwithstanding it would be the third "Special Delivery" RMA paid for by me because of a 2862ac failure because of the cost to replace the router if it went missing in the post, and they hadn't read the information in the RMA request. But they didn't approve it.

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27 Apr 2020 21:36 #15 by gracecourt
Replied by gracecourt on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

admin wrote: I'd suggest you ask politely for an escalation or resolution, with your order of preference. You may have done that at first but if you got frustrated, messaging can sometimes get less specific and angry. If you start being arsey and pretenting you're Judge John Deed, you'll just get your dealer's back up and they're less inclined to go the extra mile beyond their obligation... but then I'm not in customer service :-) Maybe time to start again with a simple request that makes their options seem easier. In parallel raise it with DrayTek UK support again - politely - explain that you're not satisfied and you'd still like it solved (if you would) - avoid the rants and anything non-technical - it just gets people defensive and backs up.


No rants have been involved, nor have I pretended to be Judge John Deed, and the e-mail exchanges have been entirely technical, but I regret that the whole point of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is to provide consumers with rights, and I'm happy to enforce mine, whatever anyone else does or does not choose to do. The response from Bonus Ltd. has been far from satisfactory, but unfortunately I have no contractual relationship with that company - the CRA 2015 provides a remedy only against the seller, but I can help the seller by making the warranty provider a joint defendant to the claim to save the seller enjoining them as a third party, wich has been explained to the seller.

I was awarded judgement.



admin wrote: Presumably by default because such cases are economically unviable to defend regardless of the validity or frivolity. I don't know why you didn't just send the first one in for service rather than sending it back - would have saved a lot of effort.


No - to the contrary, the claim was defended at a hearing before a District Judge (I did point that out). And as I also said, the first one was approved for RMA but I was told to return it to the seller, not Bonus Ltd., and it was never forwarded to Bonus Ltd. for repair/service, despite unanswered "chaser" messages to the seller for over a month. It would indeed have saved me a lot of effort but I had spent hundreds of pounds on a 2862ac router and no longer had the router, or a refund, or any response from the seller to whom I'd RMA'd it.

What would you have done? Shrugged your shoulders and bought another one?

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28 Apr 2020 05:23 #16 by admin
Replied by admin on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

gracecourt wrote:
No rants have been involved, nor have I pretended to be Judge John Deed



Well, as a technical user forum, your claimed rights and the legal aspect is not of interest... I really only care about the tech.

The response from Bonus Ltd. has been far from satisfactory



Meaning what? That they have not been able to reproduce an obscure and unusual intermittent problem
or something else?

but I can help the seller by making the warranty provider a joint defendant to the claim



Nonsense, but this isn't the place.

it was never forwarded....despite unanswered "chaser" messages to the seller for over a month.



Why did you buy another unit from the same supplier ?

What would you have done? Shrugged your shoulders and bought another one?



Hard to say. In this instance, if i believed it was environmental and obscure I'd be fasctinated and do everything I could to isolate the cause... talking of which:

1. Presumably you agree that if the problem occurs LAN side (PC directly to router, router's IP address pinged) then that's the simplest scenario and best to isolate.
2. How often does this occur - is it after a period, or apparently random ?
3. How does the problem clear - reboot, disconnect or after a period by itself ?
4. Where is this firebrick? On your LAN?

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28 Apr 2020 10:08 #17 by gracecourt
Replied by gracecourt on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

admin wrote:
Well, as a technical user forum, your claimed rights and the legal aspect is not of interest... I really only care about the tech.


All references to consumer rights have been in the context of the quality of the Vigor 2862ac router and repeated failures of that particular model... one benefit of this forum is to call attention to these failures so that members can take these into account when considering a purchase, whether or not you as Admin are only interested in the tech.

The response from Bonus Ltd. has been far from satisfactory


admin wrote:
Meaning what? That they have not been able to reproduce an obscure and unusual intermittent problem
or something else?


It really is quite tedious to have to keep referring you back to information in previous posts, which clearly you are not reading properly. None of the three router failures were obscure or intermittent. They permanently affected the normal operation of each router and could easily be reproduced by Bonus Limited by (a) reading the detailed and comprehensive fault information provided in the RMA request instead of saying that they didn't understand what the fault is, (b) approving the RMA request expeditiously so that the router could be returned for repair, and (c) keeping the RMA requestor informed with progress and not going silent for two weeks and having to be chased to provide the requestor with an update as to what is happening.

admin wrote:

but I can help the seller by making the warranty provider a joint defendant to the claim


Nonsense, but this isn't the place.


"Nonsense"?? The seller is reliant on the warranty provider if the quality of the product is so poor that a customer has to raise the issue of their consumer rights, and the whole point of making that warranty provider a joint defendant is to enable the District Judge to award judgement in the hearing of claim solely against that warranty provider rather than the seller, rather than have two separate claims and two separate hearings. This forum is stated to not be associated with Draytek but I'm wondering if it is run by someone associated with Bonus Limited...

Continued > > >

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28 Apr 2020 10:12 #18 by gracecourt
Replied by gracecourt on topic Re: Intermittent Packet Loss to internal interface on New 2862ac

admin wrote:

it was never forwarded....despite unanswered "chaser" messages to the seller for over a month.


Why did you buy another unit from the same supplier ?


I didn't - what made you think that I'd do so? The second router was purchased from a completely different supplier in December 2018 when the County Court claim was filed against the non-responsive first supplier. Don't forget that I wouldn't have bought the 2862ac unless I needed the full features and that - as in fact it turned out - a County Court hearing in a defended claim can take a number of months. The broadband connection can be maintained pro tem by a simpler router but there's no point in doing so indefinitely after paying hundreds of pounds for one that has failed after a few months.

admin wrote:

What would you have done? Shrugged your shoulders and bought another one?



Hard to say. In this instance, if i believed it was environmental and obscure I'd be fasctinated and do everything I could to isolate the cause... talking of which:

1. Presumably you agree that if the problem occurs LAN side (PC directly to router, router's IP address pinged) then that's the simplest scenario and best to isolate.
2. How often does this occur - is it after a period, or apparently random ?
3. How does the problem clear - reboot, disconnect or after a period by itself ?
4. Where is this firebrick? On your LAN?


None of these three separate failures "cleared", they were permanent, hence the RMA requests. Firebrick monitoring is standard on A&A professional broadband connections. As this information is already mentioned at least once above, you really ought to read what's posted!

I really don't understand why you might be so fascinated by the failure of your broadband connection that you'd go to so much trouble to do anything other than confirm the fault to be a hardware failure and arrange for the RMA of your router whilst using a spare one to stay connected. Most people wouldn't have a spare one and I bought a 2762Vac just to tide me over, as I now wouldn't buy another 2862ac, nor recommend it to anyone else for obvious reasons.

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